Spectacular Failure - Preaching!

[grahamps23]

Hi Tim
Good point about the persecution, for if we are witnessing in the power of the Spirit there will always be some kind of persecution; the gospel always brings fruit and persecution.
However, Peter's comments are not neccessarily in the context of persecution; he uses the word - 'if' - so my original point still stands very true.
There would have been little persecution in Wales 80 nor 90 years ago where the society was predominatly Christian, but today it is very different and I have seen this in a small way recently.  Visiting a sheltered housing complex near where I live I met a guy who was in a ver bad way mentally, killing himself with remorse.  It's long story and he said he was an atheist, but I gave him a Gideon NT and told him that if he obeyed what it tells him then he would be rid of the remorse.  Anyway, afterwards he flipped and ended up in hospital for a week and when he came back the complex manager told me that social services said that it was the Bibles fault that he flipped and that I was not to visit him anymore!  Interesting situation and not ended yet as today I intend going to se the manager.
Vlaaue your prayers.
Blessings - Graham

[IWanthetruth]

Unbelievable!!! I just spent an hour replying and it didn't post, arggg!

I'll make it simple, I disagree with your usage of 1 peter 3:16, since you didn't take into acount verses 13 and 14 and what the writer was really talking about here, Witnessing under persecution! Lot different meaning in this context than setting a foundation so that when they ask why, you are ready for an answer.

In this text the idea is apology or defence for your hope in the midst of persecution.

Sounds like another seeker-friendly method to me.

Hi Tim,

I don't know if I read it wrong, but it appears as though there should be a link to an article of some sort in your response, however there's no link there. Maybe it's just the way I read it?


John.

In this text the idea..... should be....." in the text 1 Peter 3:16 the idea is apology or defence for your hope in the midst of persecution." Hope this clarifies there is no link.

Thanks

[Andy]

Hi Graham/Tim

Securities Against a Hostile World 1 Peter 3:13-17
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/60-35

Then says Peter there is yet another security.  Verse 15, "Always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."  Let's call number four "a preparedness to answer...a preparedness to answer."

     Verse 15 simply says that when we are attacked by a hostile world we are to be able to make a defense.  Now it might seem at first as you look at this particular passage that this is a formal defense.  When he says "always being ready to make a defense," you take the word defense, apologia, from which we get an apology, or an apologetic, a defense of something.  You might assume that this is a formal defense in a court somewhere.  And by the way, it is so used in 2 Timothy 4:16, Paul speaks about his formal defense in a courtroom situation.  Also in Acts 25:16.  But you have the same word, apologia, used in Philippians 1:16 apparently in an informal sense, just being able to give a defense to anyone who asks you, not just a judge or a magistrate or a governor or somebody formally sitting in judgment over you.

     Furthermore the word "always" indicates that it's not just while you're on some official trial basis, but always, in all situations you are to be ready to give a defense not just to a judge or a magistrate but to everyone who asks you.  So I take it this is very general here.  Formal in a court at a trial, or informal, you are to make a defense, give a speech of defense.  And what is it about?  It's a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you.  What is that?  Very simply that's the Christian faith.  The hope that is in you is the Christian faith.  It's just another way to identify the Christian faith.  In other words, you are to be able to give a rational explanation and defense of why you are a Christian.  That's it.  The Christian faith or the Christian hope, synonymous really.  Peter has been talking about our hope.  Chapter 1 he says, "We have been born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," and there that living hope is tantamount to our living faith or our living Christian life.  Peter loves the word "hope," by the way.  He uses it again in chapter 1 verse 21.  He talks about the fact that our faith and hope are in God.  If we had the time we could dig deeply into this concept of Christian hope being a definition of our Christian faith.  But suffice it to say that that is indeed what it is. And if you want any background on that, go back to the notes or the tape in the first chapter when we discussed a living hope and you will find there that that living hope is a perpetual quality of life that is the same as eternal life or the Christian life or the life of faith.

     So, he's simply saying be able to defend your Christianity, be able to tell people why you believe what you believe.  Understand why you believe what you believe and then be able to articulate it.

God bless,

Andy

[IWanthetruth]

 Thanks

[grahamps23]

Hi everyone - thanks for your sensitive look at this questions.  I have, as a conclusion to bring all my thoughts together made a paper that I intend using in our church as means to get people thinking about what is going on, more, what isn't going on!  I thought I would share it as a kind of concluding remarks

How shall we preach?   What shall we preach?Paul makes it quite clear that we must preach a crucified Christ to those who are lost, but the purpose is not quite so clear.  For centuries the aim of most gospel preaching has been to get people saved so that they can go to heaven when they die. This has been the cry of so many great men and women all across the world for four centuries but in the last 50 years or so there has been a softer, gentler gospel that promised people a better life here and now, one better than they could ever imagine.  In very recent years there has been a reversal, by some who have been in charismatic groups where that ‘softer gospel’ has been the main method; which, incidentally, was effective in the beginning, for many were brought into the kingdom at that time, but this new group seem to have rejected what has been dubbed the ‘seeker sensitive’ gospel and have gone back to the older ‘hell fire’ sermon.  Prominent among this group is Ray Comfort who promotes his ideas in the title ‘Hell’s best kept Secret’.
But what about scripture?  What does the New Testament say?  What does it say about the purpose of our gospel preaching?  In the very first teaching of the disciples, the Master said – you are the salt of the earth, you are the light of the world; not much about hell or heaven there.  Next, the Master sends them out to preach the gospel of the Kingdom – repent, the Kingdom is here - and what do they do?  Exactly what He did; they went out to find the poor, the sick, the prostitutes and tax men and they came back rejoicing because even the demons were subject to them.  When there was a huge, very hungry crowd all around them, what happened?  He tells them – give what have you to them?  Just 4 loaves and a few small fish and He fed tens of thousands!
What was the Master’s own commission?
"The Spirit of the Lord is on Me; because of this He has anointed Me to proclaim the Gospel to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim deliverance to the captives, and new sight to the blind, to set at liberty those having been crushed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."  Luke 4:18-19. MKJV
Shouldn’t this be the servant’s commission too?
Let’s move on to Acts and investigate what the message of the Apostles was.  Peter’s Pentecost message was – repent, save yourself from this perverse generation. In c3 it was similar – repent, then, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord.  No mention of hell there.  Stephen nor Philip had anything to say about hell.  What about Paul?  Paul preaches a very different gospel to the Gentiles to that Peter preached to the Jews, but there is still no mention of hell anywhere.
Our command, that Great Commission, is to go and make DISCIPLES for today! Matt 28.  All this is to make our world a better place today where God is feared and acknowledged to be among His people.
So what should be the purpose of preaching Christ crucified?  It seems not for the purpose of getting people into heaven.  I’ve listened to this ‘fire assurance’ gospel for 50 years, was converted by it, but in that same time 75% of our churches have closed down!
Another relevant statement by the Lord is – I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it!  He is not talking about your church and my church, he spoke of that Universal Church which has not even been seen yet, anywhere.  What about your church and mine?  I see that Satan has prevailed greatly against mine over the last 50 years, even more against that 75% that have gone; the Lampstands were removed!  He will build His church, not us!  He is responsible for ensuring that Universal Church will be built, all the glory will be His, no doubt about it, whatever we preach, even, whether or not we preach at all!
We often say that our purpose is to glorify God here on the earth; but do we, with our powerless churches and powerless gospel?  Even in Dallas with all the concrete cathedrals, is Dallas a model of virtue; is it any better than anywhere else in USA?  I’ve just listened to a video of an interview with Leonard Ravenhill and he says – USA and England are today’s Sodom and Gomorra!  And when did Len die?  It’s far worse now.
How are we going to glorify God down here?  By making our society one that fears God!  How do we do that?  Paul tells us –
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. 1Cor 14:23-25. KJV.
God is glorified in broken lives healed, in filthy living changed for good living, in abused children brought into loving, caring relationships.  When we see some more of this happening, we will have some better communities where God is feared.  I live in village in Wales where a hundred years ago everyone went to chapel or church, not everyone were believers, but they went to chapel because they didn’t want to be seen as the wicked people who didn’t go to chapel!
I prefer a ‘gentler gospel’ today, because at the moment, our society will not listen to the ‘hell fire’ variety because it has been so greatly discredited by preachers who did not live the reality of the salvation they talked about, nor loved the people they were preaching too.
However, I am convinced that it does not really matter what type of gospel is preached, it is the motive that really matters and if the motivation is right, then God will be glorified in lots of changed lives.  When a church’s motive is right, then it will be a holy church and a holy church will be a fruitful church that will glorify God and make their community a better place to be.  This is how we are the salt of the earth, we preserve good values and virtues in the community.  This is how we are the light of the world, when we expose the evils in our community, because we are shining examples of holy living. Satan and his hordes run away from Spirit filled children of God.  [Albeit they still are able to plant the false seed, Matt 13; I never cease to marvel at the way God allows Satan to work!]  It will be Christlike living that will make the difference to our preaching, for a joy filled life, preaches without words.
Actually the Saviour makes it clear, he doesn’t leave us guessing, he tells us the purpose of His coming to earth, the purpose of this message of good news; he said – I have come to bring you live, life more abundant, John 10;10, - today, tomorrow and the next day; we don’t have to wait to get to heaven to enjoy it!
Paul also has a word on it - Eph 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
When the gospel, any type of gospel, is proclaimed alongside good works it will be fruitful, General Booth proved that conclusively.
To Titus in Crete he had an even more explicit word –
Tell believers to live the kind of life that goes along with accurate teachings. Tell older men to be sober. Tell them to be men of good character, to use good judgment, and to be well-grounded in faith, love, and endurance. Tell older women to live their lives in a way that shows they are dedicated to God. Tell them not to be gossips or addicted to alcohol, but to be examples of virtue. In this way they will teach young women to show love to their husbands and children, to use good judgment, and to be morally pure. Also, tell them to teach young women to be homemakers, to be kind, and to place themselves under their husbands' authority. Then no one can speak evil of God's word. Encourage young men to use good judgment. Always set an example by doing good things. When you teach, be an example of moral purity and dignity. Speak an accurate message that cannot be condemned. Then those who oppose us will be ashamed because they cannot say anything bad about us. Tell slaves who are believers to place themselves under their masters' authority in everything they do. Tell them to please their masters, not to argue with them or steal from them. Instead, tell slaves to show their masters how good and completely loyal they can be. Then they [all of them] will show the beauty of the teachings about God our Saviour in everything they do. Tit 2:1-10 GW.
That’s how we glorify God, this is how to make disciples!
When living matches preaching, a church can expect great things of God; but He hates it when there is disparity between what His people say and do.  There the Holy Spirit is grieved and cannot work to God’s glory, instead the churches cause the Gentiles to blaspheme and God will only tolerate that for so long.  At that point the Risen Christ is outside the door of the church, Rev 3;20, but He will, if there is no repentance, one day He will - spit them out of His mouth - and it will no more be a church of His; although it might go on for a very long time after that, merely a religious social club that hinders the work of God; and we’ve far too many of those around today!
It will take some real leaders, Biblical elders, overseers who meet the criteria of 1Tim3 and Tit 1, when they exercise the Holy Spirit given gifts and are recognised as such within our churches, then, there will be a good chance that we will achieve holy churches.  Then the joy of the Lord will saturate His churches, then He will be glorified among His people.  When the children of God become the sons of God and walk and work in Holy Spirit power, then our society will be a God fearing one, but not until then!
But there is one more exceptionally important verse that needs to be considered in this context, for this lies at the very heart of the Saviour’s desire for His people.  The night before He died he prayed with one particular burden - the complete unity of His people.  An hour earlier He told them how that unity would be achieved – by this shall all men know that you are my disciples in that you love one another, John 13;35.  This is James ‘Royal Law’, this is that first command, 1John 1;7, this is the very crux of Christian living, that we love one another - as Christ loves us.  When this happens in local churches then the community all around will want to know what it is all about and they will come asking, we won’t have to preach very much!  Can we show them we have a real hope?  Are we able to give them a reason for that hope?  1Peter 3;16.
When we get rid of the silly quarrels, the gossip, the sectarian attitudes, the personality clashes and the apathy that characteristic of most, we can start to love with that - love that has been poured into our hearts, by the Holy Spirit, Rom 5;5, then our churches will become fruitful, because there is a huge, white harvest just waiting for the reapers, everywhere.  Who has what it takes to cut out the rot that we currently experience and will be desperate enough to do anything God requires, so as to be the real worshippers that the Father is looking for?

[John]

Hi Graham,

Whilst I'm in agreement with you completely with regard to the way in which Christians must be living examples of faith in Christ, I cannot agree with your seeming willingness to avoid the matter of God's wrath upon the ungodly. Especially because the Scriptures themselves, both Old and New Testaments seem to deliver the good news, using the bad news of sin and death as a platform. Take even the apostle Paul:

Romans 1:15-19
15  So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.
16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19  because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.


You made a comment in your article below that said:

In very recent years there has been a reversal, by some who have been in charismatic groups where that ‘softer gospel’ has been the main method; which, incidentally, was effective in the beginning, for many were brought into the kingdom at that time.

I myself doubt this, and so too I think you will find many others agree with my sentiment, especially those from a similar background. Yes it's true that you will find plenty more "bum's on seats" in churches where a softer gospel is preached, but under the surface you will find many of those who are confused, even scared of the reality of their relationship with Christ. For when a statement heard from the lips of their own Saviour saying;

Matthew 7:21-23
21  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22  Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23  And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Those same believers are left in a state of terror, to which I can wholeheartedly testify. This was the very reason I have come to a position of rejecting such a gospel, for it is not the true Gospel that holds the full saving power of God Almighty.

I cannot know who is sincere in their profession of Christ, and even if I were to attempt to judge fruit that could clearly be seen, I would no doubt be very unstable in my judgment to say the least. But what I can do, and give every ounce of strength to accomplish, is to encourage those who profess Christ as their Saviour, to lay down their lives fully, and surrender everything to Him willingly, that their faith may be refined by the fire of the Holy Spirit. That He may take them into tribulation, and out the other side victoriously, having produced perserverance, character, and a hope that never fails, along the way. This cannot be done by promoting a soft gospel message that ignores the reality of heaven and hell.

Both heaven and hell are realities that serve to remind us that we are in this life for but a moment, regardless of how wrapped up we may get in it. To the unbeliever, this reality can serve to drive them to their knees before the Lord, that they may repent and believe the good news of His salvation. Whilst to the believer, they serve to remind us of the eternal hope that is secured in Him, and the dire need to preach the Gospel constantly to all who will listen. Let the Lord save who He will save, but let us be faithful in our preaching!

[grahamps23]

John wrote -
But what I can do, and give every ounce of strength to accomplish, is to encourage those who profess Christ as their Saviour, to lay down their lives fully, and surrender everything to Him willingly, that their faith may be refined by the fire of the Holy Spirit.

I entirely agree and this is my burden - to see holy churches.

When we get the holy churches we will be able to present the gospel to the unbeliever effectively - by any means.  However, it is clearly the New Testament pattern in gospel preaching that nothing is said of heaven and hell; it is all about life here and now; this is how we will bring glory to God by seeing the fear of God in our communities TODAY.  That fear will be achieved by them seeing changed lives and living, that's the power of God to salvation, Rom 1;16.
Will continue to pray for the work at Townhill and wait to hear of the blessing.
Graham

[IWanthetruth]

"When we get the holy churches we will be able to present the gospel to the unbeliever effectively - by any means."  

Who is the "we"?

What is implied by the "holy churches"?  There is one Church upon the earth defined as the ekklesia or called out ones of God.  Because the Church is set aside for the glory and purposes of God it is already holy (that's what holiness in this context means).  Perhaps you are making a reference to the "visible" church (which contains wheat and chaff) as opposed to the invisible church which is comprised purely of the redeemed.

"...we will be able to present the gospel to the unbeliever effectively--by any means."

This statement amplifies a common misunderstanding of the essence of evangelism.  Biblically speaking evangelism is not an effect, it is a message--proclaiming the evangel or Gospel.  The statement suggests that successful evangelism will produce a specific effect--presumably conversions.  But that is silly and runs counter to Scripture which explicitly teaches that the Gospel message is foolishness to those who are perishing in unbelief, and that apart from the Holy Spirit's regenerative work fallen sinner are incapable or understanding it, let alone responding positively to it.  The Apostle Paul made this point clear by informing the Corinthians that their faith was not the result of his persuasive arguments or skill as a preacher, but in spite of his shortcomings in this regard, so that, they would give all the glory to God who alone for their salvation.  Evengelism ought to be measured as effective by the content of the message presented and not the oratory skill of the preacher.  It is not the business of the preacher to ponder the response or lack of response to his message, that is God's bit.  The preachers responsibility as an ambassador or Christ is to simply present the Gospel as Christ instructed and leave the results to God.  Many churches today, not understanding this, employ situational evangelistic methods that are neither biblical or helpful.  The fruit of their labors is too often to produce false converts who fall away in due season because they were never saved to begin with, but merely responded to psychological manipulation.      

"... the New Testament pattern in gospel preaching that nothing is said of heaven and hell...."  Beginning with John the Baptist, and then with Jesus Christ, and continuing on with the apostles heaven and hell were constant themes and communicated in the broader context of the "kingdom of God."  Christ specifically spoke of heaven and hell frequently.  

"...it is all about life here and now...."

This sounds a bit like "You can have your best life now" (Joel Osteen).  Actually, the eschatological reality of the second coming occupied the minds of the early church, and like Abraham they looked for a city not made by human hands who's builder is God.  The biblical narrative speaks to the age to come as the blessed hope in Christ Jesus and that this life is but a vapor, something not to hold on to because in this life we will have trouble.  Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God and this mortal must put on immortality, this is the cry of the children of God.

[Mark]

I’ve listened to this ‘fire assurance’ gospel for 50 years, was converted by it, but in that same time 75% of our churches have closed down!

...but you were converted by it.  Are you criticising the method that worked for you?  I'm personally open to any method out there, so long as it's sincere and true.  Just get the message out, in any manner, and you're already doing a better job than 99% of the believers out there.