Hymns/Psalms or CCM?

[Andy]

If you could only pick one, which would you pick, hymns/psalms or contemporary Christian music, and why?

[Andy]

I would pick Hymns/Psalms because of the depth of the words. They focus us on Jesus, remind us of our (mans) condition and are full of doctrine and theology. There are none of the musical/vocal frills that can manipulate the emotions as in CCM.

That is not to say that I do not like CCM, well some of it anyway  It is just that I believe that it tends to be rather shallow and man centred generally. 

[IWanthetruth]

I had to pick hymns/psalms because of the same reason, the words, the doctrine.... but, if CCM would be more theologically correct I would probably vote that way.

[John]

I had to pick hymns/psalms because of the same reason, the words, the doctrine.... but, if CCM would be more theologically correct I would probably vote that way.

I love the words that are used to express the truth of God through old hymns too, and especially love to hear the Psalms sung, but I do prefer it when they are done in a contemporary way if I'm honest. For example I absolutely love the Sons of Korah since being made aware of them, and I love the praise and worship at the church I'm now part of at Calvary chapel, as we sing a high proportion of old hymns such as come Thou fount of every blessing, Rock of ages, amazing Grace, and loads of Psalms, but usually in a more contemporary style. I absolutely love it, as it's quite new to me really.

[Steph]

Hymns / Psalms and also some of the ccm too - those that are not bubblegum repetitive words that go on like a new-age mantra, but rather those that are deep, Spirit inspired.  I love music and I love to sing. John has already mentioned Sons of Korah, and they have been a great source of joy to me. 

[Mark]

Okay, well, I've been sitting on this one for a while now, not sure how to answer.  I have to admit that the hymns have superior lyrics, but I can't remember ever thinking "I gotta' go buy me a hymn CD to listen to in the car."  It's unfortunate, but that music style just kills me.   I know there's a lot of hoopla against contemporary Christian music.  DefendingContending does a piece on it every now and then.  At least they haven't fingered anyone that I like.  Even so, I figure it's a matter of time.  They condemn even the style of CCM music, so there isn't much room for negotiation.

I love contemporary Christian music.  It's the only thing I would put in the player, even if it isn't as deep and spiritual as the hymns.  It's the only thing I would spend money on.  It's my entire music collection.

[John]

Okay, well, I've been sitting on this one for a while now, not sure how to answer.  I have to admit that the hymns have superior lyrics, but I can't remember ever thinking "I gotta' go buy me a hymn CD to listen to in the car."  It's unfortunate, but that music style just kills me.   I know there's a lot of hoopla against contemporary Christian music.  DefendingContending does a piece on it every now and then.  At least they haven't fingered anyone that I like.  Even so, I figure it's a matter of time.  They condemn even the style of CCM music, so there isn't much room for negotiation.

I love contemporary Christian music.  It's the only thing I would put in the player, even if it isn't as deep and spiritual as the hymns.  It's the only thing I would spend money on.  It's my entire music collection.

I have to agree with you on most of what you've said. I cannot remember the last time I rushed out to buy a hymn CD either!  The strange thing is for me just lately, especially since becoming a part of Calvary Chapel, I found that the majority of the songs they use in worship are actually hymns, but set into a contemporary style, which I find absolutely fantastic. And if there were CD's available with the songs they do, set in the style they use, then I probably would rush out to buy the CD. In fact our pastor, who is also an excellent school music teacher, has just finished building a recording studio in his home. So who knows, maybe we will soon be able to knock out a few CD's to fill the gap?!

[Steph]

I cannot remember the last time I rushed out to buy a hymn CD either!

John, I have two great CDs called Hymns 4 Worship. They are set in the contemporary style and they are really great. I am sure they must be available your way too. 

[Andy]

Hi,

Thanks for all the comments everyone.

Well Ephesians exhorts us to "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord," but it doesn't dictate the style of the melody so to my thinking as long as the musical style (as well as the words) is glorifying to God then we have freedom in our choice.

That being said that is when things start to get tricky as everybody has their own subjective opinion as to what style of music is glorifying to God and it isn't surprising to find that usually it matches what we like in the world and that's how we end up with things such as Christian Thrash Metal, Punk, Goth and Trance to name a few.

Mark,

DefendingContending does a piece on it every now and then.  At least they haven't fingered anyone that I like.  Even so, I figure it's a matter of time.

Did you see the item on DefCon this week about David Crowder? Not sure if you have anything in your collection by him. I certainly do as I have a few of the Passion Worship series. Also I thought Ray Boltz was excellent, but I have to ask how is that glorfying to God, another recent casualty on my list is Godfrey Birtill, one of my favorites, but his involvement with Emerge Wales and SloshFest has had to make me think again. It seems like even the better CCM artists (in terms of content) cannot be relied upon. So far Sons of Korah are still OK 

At least with an old church organ we don't have anybody to let us down, but best check out the organist        

One thing I am learning is that it is an area where we can easily go astray, may God lead us in His way.

God bless,

Andy

[Mark]

Did you see the item on DefCon this week about David Crowder? Not sure if you have anything in your collection by him. I certainly do as I have a few of the Passion Worship series. Also I thought Ray Boltz was excellent, but I have to ask how is that glorfying to God, another recent casualty on my list is Godfrey Birtill, one of my favorites, but his involvement with Emerge Wales and SloshFest has had to make me think again. It seems like even the better CCM artists (in terms of content) cannot be relied upon. So far Sons of Korah are still OK 

Yeah, actually, I did read that post.  In fact, I went straight from that post to this thread, where I finally gave an answer to the question, here.  I don't have anything by David Crowder or Ray Boltz.  I do have a couple of Caedman's Call CDs, but I wouldn't consider myself one of their fans.

I love DefCon.  I really do.  It's the style of argument that they use against CCM that bothers me, though.  It's what's called an allegorical argument.  It's the same kind of argument that atheists and Christian-bashers use against us all of the time.  It's also a fallacy.  If you can muster enough examples of bad Christians, or bad CCM artists, or bad (your hated category here), and you parade that list as an example of why you hate that kind of person, place or thing, then you make a compelling argument, but not a rational one at all.

I have a few preachers in my family, and I've been in close enough contact with others, that, if I were so inclined, I could make a case against Bible-believing pastors using that same kind of argument.  I would never do it, as it would be self-defeating, not to mention deceptive.  Even so, the fact is that the organ is not actually safe, so long as it is being played by a human organist, nor is a hymn safe, so long as it was written by a human author.  Anywhere that humans play a role in a thing, bad humans can be found, dragged out and paraded in disgrace.  The advantage that hymns have over contemporary music is hindsight.  The vast majority of the authors are already dead.  We've already selected from the best.

The strange thing is for me just lately, especially since becoming a part of Calvary Chapel, I found that the majority of the songs they use in worship are actually hymns, but set into a contemporary style, which I find absolutely fantastic. And if there were CD's available with the songs they do, set in the style they use, then I probably would rush out to buy the CD.

I thought the same thing about the music played in my Vinyard congregation.  I was shocked to find it on Amazon.  If you know the names of the musicians, you might try looking them up on the net.  CD production is easy these days, and so is marketing.  Most serious musicians produce some kind of album, even if it isn't distributed professionally.

[John]

We may debate the rights and wrongs of hymns versus CCM worship songs, but how about this for a gross insult that goes way beyond what we've been talking about!

Christ Christ Baby

[Andy]

Please note I have edited this post

Hi John,

If you remember I was quite against Send Me I'll Go, even though the lyrics were sound I felt that the use of contemporary rap does not lend itself to glorifying God.

I still feel the same but also take your point that just because I don't believe it is not glorifying to God doesn't mean that it isn't. I believe you felt that someone with a different cultural background may believe it is.

The crux of my reservation about using contemporary musical styles such as rap is where do we draw the line? When does something become unacceptable? Can this line be viewed objectively or is it subjective?

That being said can I ask what do you think about the following video? Words underneath just in case    

Shai Linne - Greatest Story Ever Told (w/ Lyrics)

Alright check it: lets go back in time, brethren. Divine lessons always keep your mind guessing. The glory of the Triune God is what Im stressing. The origin of humankind was fine. Blessings were plenteous. God is amazingly generous. Crazy benefits in a state of innocence. God told the man what he could taste was limited. Not long after came our nemesis in Genesis. He scammed well, man fell, damned to hell. The whole human race—he represented it. Fooled by the serpent, man through his work, woman through birth—even the earth ruled by the curses. But instead of a wake immediately. God said her Seed would be the One to crush the head of the snake. Yo, wait what is this? Whoa, a gracious gift! In Jehovahs faithfulness He clothed their nakedness. This was so they would know their Saviors kiss and bliss. But first, many growing pains exist suffering in the worst form, ugly deeds. Eves firstborn seed made his brother bleed. Indeed things got progressively worse. Every section of the earth is been affected by the curse. And though Gods judgments against sin were gory, praise the Lord! Its not the end of the story.

Next scene: mans sin was extreme. God gets steamed, man gets creamed. The Lord is so Holy that He drowned them in the water. Fire in the valley of slaughter Sodom and Gomorrah. But at the same time, Hes so gracious and patient that from one man He created a whole nation. Eventually enslaved by the mentally depraved, they cried out to the only One with the strength that He could save. He brought them out with signs and wonders satisfied their hunger. Then He appeared on Mount Sinai in thunder. Where He laid down the law for God-ruled government. Commonly referred to as the Mosaic covenant. Sin was imputed. So for man to know hes unrighteous, God instituted animal sacrifices. This was to show our constant need for atonement. And when it came to sin, the Lord would never condone it. And when His people disobeyed and went astray, He raised up prophets and kings to lead them in the way. But they would get foul with their idolatry—wet and wild prophecy—send them into exile. To take their punishment like a grown man. Then with His own hand He placed them back in their homeland. And while in their forefathers land they dwelt, they awaited the arrival of Emmanuel.

After 400 silent years filled with sighs and tears. In Bethlehem the Messiah appears. God in the flesh—Second Person of the Trinity. At thirty begins His earthly ministry. Baffling cats with accurate, exact facts and back-to-back miraculous acts. A stumbling block to the self righteous. But the humbled—His flock, said Theres no one else like this. He came from heaven to awake the numb. Demonstrated His power over nature, son. A foretaste of the Kingdom and the age to come. But the reason He came was to pay the sum for the depths of our wickedness, our wretched sinfulness. Bless His magnificence! He is perfect and innocent. Yet He was wrecked and His death. He predicted it. Next He was stretched, paid a debt that was infinite. He said that He finished it. Resurrected so the elect would be the recipients of its benefits. Through faith and penitence we get to be intimate. His grace is heaven sent, it never diminishes. Now the Holy Spirit indwelling is the evidence for heavens future residents who truly represent Jesus, the Author, Producer, Director, and Star of a story that will never, ever end!

Its the greatest story ever told.
A God pursues foes whose hearts turned cold.
The greatest story ever told.
Restoring all that the enemy stole.
The greatest story ever told.
The glory of Christ is the goal, behold.
The greatest story ever told.
Its the greatest.

God bless,

Andy

[John]

Hope I'm not in for another grilling here? LOL

Firstly I have to say outright, that I totally understand anyone who does not like this type of music, if that's what you want to call it, and I'm fine with that. I also would have to say that you could arguably find songs in a different style that would contain a similar message, and many would find it much easier to listen to.

However I have to say that I like this not just a little but a lot. I know rap can come across like some sort of delinquent mess of a thing to some, but I honestly do believe there is a sincere poetry to much rap music, and it is only the violence and hopelessness of much of it that prevents me listening more. Maybe it's not a popular standpoint, but nevertheless, it is most definitely mine.

Put it this way. I wouldn't want to attend church on a Sunday morning and listen to this type of music as communal worship by any means. However in the context of a band of musicians wishing to express God's truth through the media of popular music, I think they do an excellent job. I didn't take too much notice of the video images though, so if I missed something there, please forgive me.

God bless,

John.

[Andy]

Hi John,

No grillin' brother  - sizzle sizzle   

As it happens I quite like it as well 

I just can't see how my response fits with verses such as 1 John 2:15-17, Luke 9:23 & 2 Cor 6:11-18 and that troubles me. Not that I want the word to validate my likes and dislikes but that I want my life to conform to the word.

God bless,

Andy

[Mark]

I just can't see how my response fits with verses such as 1 John 2:15-17, Luke 9:23 & 2 Cor 6:11-18 and that troubles me. Not that I want the word to validate my likes and dislikes but that I want my life to conform to the word.

1 John 2:15-17 (New International Version):

 15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

Luke 9:23 (New International Version):

23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.


2 Corinthians 6:11-18 (New International Version)

 11We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. 12We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. 13As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also.
Do Not Be Yoked With Unbelievers
 14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[a]? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
 17"Therefore come out from them
      and be separate, says the Lord.
   Touch no unclean thing,
      and I will receive you."[c]
 18"I will be a Father to you,
      and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."


 
1 John 2:15-17:  Is the preference for CCM a love of the world?  If we put it this way: had we developed that style of music before the world did, would it still be worldly?  If the world adopted the strophic style characteristic of hymns, would hymns become worldly?  While the love of contemporary music could develop into a sin, like the worship of worldly rock stars, while the love of CCM has, in fact, developed into the very same worship of rock stars in some cases, the style, itself, is not the issue.  It's like the difference between a  sculpture and an idol.  One is a work of art to be enjoyed, and the other is a false god to be worshiped.  One is okay, and the other is not, but the difference is not inherent in the thing, itself.

Luke 9:23: For many CCM musicians, going on tour and living in a bus for half the year is about as close as a person can get to obeying this verse as one can get.  It's not easy.

2 Corinthians 6:11-18:  Who are the unbelievers?  Are these musicians touring with secular bands?  Do they perform in secular conventions and at secular events?  For the most part, they do not work alongside secular bands, nor do they support or promote secular events.  They are not seen together with, along side of, nor in conjunction with bands that disparage Christ.


Now I've got two for you:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
2 Samuel 6:16-22